Will the diplomatically weak U.S. driven subversion get Ukraine for Nato, then as a beachhead for forcing Russia into a common geopolitical region spreading from California to Japan and South-Korea, will that aim succeed given underestimating Russia and overestimating the power of one-sided reporting by the Western media?

This is the real question now, which was quite well discussed in the latest edition of CrossTalk (I would add to it only the U.S. geopolitical aims as described publicly in Balancing the East, Upgrading the West – U.S. Grand Strategy in an Age of Upheaval [Foreign Affairs, JANUARY / FEBRUARY 2012 ISSUE] ):

CrossTalk: Chicken Kiev? [RT YouTube channel, April 21, 2014]

What kind of democracy do the EU and the US want in Ukraine? Can the agreed roadmap to de-escalation gain traction? And will the crisis be left to Russia to end it? CrossTalking with Alexander Mercouris, Mark Sleboda and Mark Hackard.

Transcript:

Hello and welcome to CrossTalk for all things considered. I’m Peter Lavelle. Chicken came to the western-backed coup regime in Ukraine appears powerless to stop the rapid collapse of the economy and official structures. The agreed roadmap to de-escalate tensions has gained little traction from the White House and the people of the East and South Ukraine. The West started this crisis, it will be left to Russia to end it.

To cross that ongoing crisis in Ukraine I’m joined by my guests: Alexander Mercouris in London, he is a writer on legal affairs and an analyst; in San Francisco we have Mark Hackard, he is an author and columnist for soul of the east dot org; and in Moscow we cross to Mark Sleboda. He is a senior lecturer and researcher at Moscow State University. Gentlemen CrossTalk rules are in fact mean you can jump in anytime you want and I very much encourage it

Alexander, if I go to you first in London: what’s going on with this roadmap? At the end of last week we had this agreement to de-escalate the situation in Ukraine, but over the weekend it rapidly deteriorated in Ukraine, so is it a dead letter?

Well one has to wonder, I mean the problem is the walls, the walls a statement which sets out a roadmap. What there is—at the moment—is a complete lack of any political will to put it into effect. [and] It has to be said very clearly that that lack of political will is coming at the moment from Kiev proper primarily, and also from Washington. The moment this document was signed off we already saw Washington trying to interpret it in its own terms as requiring people in the east to leave buildings first, and with threats against Russia, threats with more sanctions, and that is really not helpful in a situation like this.

Mark in Moscow unhelpful that is exactly true here. It seems hard to believe that Barack Obama was dismissing what his own Secretary of State had negotiated with his counterpart, the Russian Foreign Minister. I mean, again, is this a kind of “diplomacy” [in quote-and quote] we can expect in dealing with this crisis in Ukraine?

Well, I think we’ve seen an extreme deficit in diplomacy out of the United States, not only in the Ukraine where for some years now. Political dot com just recently did a piece exposing how the majority of the US diplomats within Europe are actually Democratic Party activists who have paid large amounts of money to the Barak Obama’s political campaign in order to get those diplomatic seats. Cronies if you will. The majority of the European capitals’ diplomats for the United States are political cronies of the Democratic Party. [and] This exposes itself in a complete dearth of professional diplomacy. There are very few professional career diplomats within the US diplomatic service. Now John Kerry himself can be excluded to this to a certain extent having a long career in foreign service within the Senate. But overall on the ground throughout the rest of Europe and all the other levels of functionaries within the US diplomatic corps we have seen a complete deficit of professionalism, of knowledge about the region, and the price for US policy and decision-making has clearly been shown.

Mark in San Francisco: it seems to me—and please disagree if you disagree with the following—it seems to me Washington really doesn’t want a solution. It already has a goal, and it wants to achieve that goal, but it has nothing to do with democratic forces or the needs and wants of the Ukrainian people. What it wants to do is, it wants to make Russia look like it’s at fault here, and if you look at Western media that’s all you’re going to hear or read.

Yes that’s true. If you look at what recently happened you have the massacre in Slaviansk by Right Sector, thugs and that’s not gonna get reported in the Western media. Washington really doesn’t want a solution to the crisis. It works for them if they can destabilize Russia’s periphery. [and] You know, what’s basically happening is that Washington, London, Paris—but especially Washington/Wall Streetare looking to expand the powers as far East as possible, and that’s what the Maidan revolution was about. You know, under slogans of freedom and democracy they want to strip the country of its assets and move NATO forces and missile defense assets to Russia’s South-West frontiers.

How Alexander, the interesting thing is—if I think back to the breakup of Yugoslavia, the bombing of Serbia, and then thinking in terms of what happened recently in Libya—this is the same game plan? Every single time they go to the same procedure. The difference is in Ukraine, Russia is next door, and Russia has a lot of cards to play. Now it looks a lot of people are saying that this is a ploy. They want to trick Russia into some kind of move that will start some kind of conflict—it would be very limited, but Russia would be the net loser. Do you see that in your crystal ball?

No, I don’t actually. I think that they greatly underestimate Russia’s intelligence and sophistication. I think this has been a fundamental problem with the United States on looking at Russia. It has a very outdated view of Russia, still based on the nineteen nineties, and I think that anybody—looking at the quality of diplomatic service that Russia has, and his political leadership, and comparing it with that at the United States—would say that simply isn’t going to happen.

Can I just pick up on a point that Mark made. One of the fundamental problems dealing with the United States is that you come up with a statement like the one we saw this week, which in itself could take nothing forward, but what then happens is that people in Washington try to use that statement for propaganda purposes completely distorting its meaning in order to pursue the agenda that you touched on, and which some of the other speakers on our program have touched on. [and] That of course takes us back. Okay.

Mark in Moscow. You know, I really can’t figure this out because it on the one hand it seems to me that Washington really, it has a goal, but it’s how it gets there is very ad hoc. They always go back, they always following news flow in trying to even out the news flow to reflect how they get to their goal. But on the other side it seems to me that the Russians have prepared for almost every single contingency conceivable, and this is why Washington looks so wobbly all the time.

Well, I think that from the very beginning of this crisis the US by openly supporting and fomenting and by all accounts funding this Euro Maidan riots and putsch in Ukraine they have counted on the fact that Russia would simply accept another regime change on their borders. As much as Russia did in the Color Revolution that occurred in Ukraine in 2005, and that Russia— for the sake of maintaining its relations with the West and for the sake of economic relations with the Ukraine as a major trade partner—would accept this change of regime, would accept this geopolitical coup, and would actually fund the putsch regime that the West has had just installed there. They had the temerity, William Hague the British Foreign Minister had the temerity to question the Russian government, immediately after the putsch took power in Kiev on February 21st and 22nd, if Russia would continue its $15 billion dollars worth of aid supported, and they acted genuinely shocked when Russia, you know, made clear that they wouldn’t.

So all along there has been this assumption, this misreading of Russia’s core national security and identity interest that they would just accept it. [and] The truth is it was one regime to change too many and far too close to Russia’s redline security issues.

Mark in San Francisco, Mark in Moscow brings up a very good point. After the illegal coup occurred, you know, looking at it from Washington’s perspective, did they really believe that Russia was going to do nothing? What did they expect Russia to do? I mean it’s on its border, it has national interest there, there are Russian speakers there, there are ethnic Russians there, and Washington truly expected that Vladimir Putin would say allright, fine?

Yes, I think that was the case. If you look at what happened in the Orange Revolution 2004, 2005 as Mark in Moscow pointed out, they were expecting that Putin would essentially grin and bear it. Basically they wanted history to repeat itself and they thought, that the Ukraine would become essentially economics atrophy of the European Union, that they could kick out, you know, in some period of time the Black Sea Fleet from Sevastopol. [and] They were probably genuinely surprised when Russia secured Crimea and shifted the agenda so that it turned out that the West was off balance that the US was not setting the tune for geopolitics in Eastern Europe.

Let me go to Alexander real quick before we go to the break. Alexander to me through this entire crisis the West never believes in the agency of the Ukrainian people. It has to have fascists leading the revolution in Maidan and people in the East simply don’t exist.

Well, indeed, that’s absolutely the case. The trouble is, as we were talking about the US perception, the US does not have a realistic understanding of the Ukraine. It does not have a realistic understanding in Russia. Russia does have a realistic understanding of the Ukraine. That is why Russia is being much more effective in its dealings in the Ukraine than the US is, and why the US is getting into bed with some extremely violent forces.

Okay on that note there are you know which way to return to that we’re gonna. Go to a short break, and after that short break we’ll continue our discussion on Ukraine’s day with RT.


Welcome back to CrossTalk for all things considered. I’m Peter Lavelle. To remind you, we’re discussing ongoing crisis in Ukraine.

Okay, I like to go back to Mark here in Moscow. When I talked about Ukraine’s agency, the agency of the Ukrainian people you really perked up there. You wanted a follow-up?

Yeah, I think this has been really crucial to understanding the plans and the policies of both the Western countries and this putsch regime that they have helped install and backed in Kiev. Is this denying of political agency and even of the very existence of the people of South and East Ukraine? This has been instrumental.

We have to remember that this putsch regime has absolutely no constitutional, legal or democratic legitimacy. It was installed at the back of violent street protests. Mobs at the hands of an ultranationalist vanguard that murdered police, young men in uniform on the streets of Kiev in order to seize power. So in order to help legitimize …

Mark here in Moscow. Mark, that that’s not true. I didn’t hear that on CNN. I didn’t hear that on BBC. I didn’t read that in the Washington Post. I didn’t see it in the New York Times. So that must not have happened, right?

That brings up an even better point is how the Western press has been complicit in his entire process. [and] They really share a great deal of the great blame because they are on there right now, on the streets of Donetsk, Slaviansk in the other cities in the East and South, where Russian orientated protesters are. [and] They’re not just Russian ethnic or Russian-speaking. I prefer to call them Russian orientated because there are people for the reasons of identity, for reasons of political and cultural orientation—be they Russian ethnic, be they Ukrainian ethnic, be they primarily of Soviet identity—they look towards Russia for direction and for their identity.

[and] It has been instrumental, the press has been instrumental in this process of denying that they are there. They keep insisting on this mythology propagated by both the putsch regime and the Western governments. That this is all due to mysterious Russian agents, men in green. That neither CNN nor CBS nor NBC nor the BBC have been able to find a single Russian agent on the ground there. They’ve talked to hundreds of people and they still can’t find any Russian agents.

You could see for yourself what, after much ‘hunting’, US was able to come up with the next day after this CrossTalk: 
Picture Perfect? US State Dept publishes ‘evidence’ of Russian ‘involvement’ in Ukraine [RT YouTube channel, April 21, 2014]

Pictures — according to the US State Department — prove Russian involvement in eastern Ukraine. The ‘evidence’ as the State Department calls them, show people taking part in seizures of admin buildings in the region. These same individuals involved in operations in Georgia in 2008, according to the State Department. Spokeswoman Jen Psaki came under fire over those photos during her last briefing.

The only agents—that we know for sure—that are interfering in the politics of the Ukraine at this moment are the CIA who have visited and/or operating out on the floor of the Ukrainian Intelligent Committee in Kiev.

Mark, from the very very beginning I’ve said this is really more about a media war here because according to Western media there are no fascists, and the people in the East just victims of Russian aggression. But the fact of the matter is that there are known fascist and ultra nationalist anti-semites in this government, un-elected government in Kiev. But it’s almost never ever talked about, except for the people in the East to being duped by Russians. For heaven’s sake a lot of them all-Russian. You don’t have to motivate these people. If people like the Right Sector coming to your town you’re going to get ready.

Yes, absolutely. That’s the funny thing. The media, the Western media—CNN, Fox News, whoever—will call protesters in the East, who—as Mark pointed out—for reasons of cultural, ethnic, religious identity look to Russia for guidance. They will call them let’s see … the rebels … right they’re straight out called terrorists whereas the people on the Maidan, the urban fighters who were shooting at cops, throwing Molotov cocktails were known as peaceful protesters, and that’s still the case. [and] Those “peaceful protesters” that the core of that was Right Sector, and today yes Right Sector, with this ideology that derives from the the doctrines of Stepan Bandera, they are in the government. Dmitry Yarosh who is running for president is on the Defense and National Security Council. You have other people like …

I’d like also point out that this gentleman, Yarosh, he is appointing people all throughout the country to positions of influence that have to do with security. He’s spreading his venom here.

Alexander, let me go to You. It was so wonderful to have you here in Moscow a few weeks ago. We talked it quite a bit about what’s going on in Ukraine. Square the circle for me here. Now these Right Sector people they cannot be elected, they just don’t have the authoral power. They can’t seem to keep the country together. The economy’s going into free fall. So when the European Union watches this upcoming election, is the European Union to call it right or they just going to make sure they get their friends in power?

Well, they’re going to make sure that they get their friends in power. I mean this has been the consistent pattern unfortunately in elections in the former Soviet bloc since 1991. I happen to know that there was an election in Croatia some years ago, back in the 90’s which went wrong as much as the European Union was concerned, and the monitor’s report about it was suppressed. And it was in nineteen ninety-six in Russia mister Yeltsin was said to have won, even though everybody knows he lost.

The point about the election that’s going to happen in the Ukraine is it is not really an election at all. Two of the candidates Mr. Tsarev and Mr. Dopkin were recently assaulted because they’re considered to be by Right Sector too close to the protests in the East. The purpose of this election is to legitimize the seizure of power that took place in Kiev on the 22nd of February. [and] I think that’s an important point to make because, I agree with you completely, the dominant groups within the government, at least on the military side, Right Sector and the rest, would certainly not be able to win power to the extent that they have it now, in any conceivable democratic election. If you see the support they have is usually around one or two percent.

Mark in Moscow: So what kind of democracy is the EU and Washington building in Ukraine? Because this is their mantra, okay, this is how they spread their power. You will have an election, I call it an election fetish. [and] In the European Union they just keep having elections until they get the right answer. Is this what we expect the same in Ukraine?

Well, through any of your viewers—and I think RT viewers are a little bit more internet savvy than most—who have managed to avoid the black out of the Western mainstream media on the issue, who watch RT or who are paying close attention to the videos or that thing—of the Ukraine crisis, there was a video that showed a group of Right Sector thugs walked into a local council meeting about a month ago, just outside Kiev, a local political Council, with armed to the teeth, wearing masks and taking position behind a number of the politicians with sledgehammers and axes. They seized the microphone and insisted that everyone there who was a member of one of the previous governments’ coalition parties—that is the party of regions or the Communist Party—resign. That is the type of democracy that is being built in the Ukraine. These “elections” that are coming up, that the putsch is trying to use to legitimize itself.

We have had the Communist Party leader be physically assaulted by Svoboda party members on the floor of the Rada when he tried to raise objection to the putsch’s policies of sending the military against their own citizens in the East. The Communist Party headquarters in Kiev has been looted and burned to the ground. The Communist Party leader’s home has also been burned. One of the first legislative actions of this putsch Rada was too ban the Communist Party, although that has not actually been put into law for obvious reasons. The Party of Regions offices have been looted and burned across the country. Party of Regions officials have been lynched in public. And, now we’ve had the beatings, multiple beatings of the two presidential candidates who are not represented by the Euro Maidan putsch. One of them to within an inch of his life and the perpetrators are right-wing, these Right Sector, fascist paramilitaries that are supportive and supported by this putsch regime. So, let’s not talk about democracy. This is gone beyond mobacracy into direct fascism.

Mark, define some kind of a solution to, well, what’s going on Ukraine. Russia has to be part of the the end game here. When is that going to happen because on the one hand Washington and Brussels keep threatening [with] the stick but [you know] Russia has all of the carrots to take care of this. I was hoping for a long time we could go back to February 21st [agreement] but that that seems to be impossible right now. Does the European Union and Washington really want to stand shoulder to shoulder with these really gruesome people because it’s coming out, it’s coming social media, on the Internet, okay, maybe the networks, the broadshit wanna talk about it, but it’s there and it’s coming to light.

Yes, they are standing shoulder to shoulder with thugs, and there’s precedent for this. In the Ukraine the United States and certain European powers, especially Britain of course, are using these movements like Right Sector and Svoboda to achieve their aims, to take power. Just as they use terrorists, jihadists in Syria, or against Russia itself they will promote movements for cultural disintegration, sexual deviance like Pussy Riots.

So you see there, these vectors of subversion and western intelligence will use these people against Russia for its geopolitical agenda. The agenda in Ukraine …

Gentlemen, we’ve run out of time. Everything we’ve talked about here doesn’t seem to help the Ukrainian people. They are the one in crisis. Many thanks to my guests today in London, San Francisco and in Moscow, and thanks to our viewers for watching us here …. See you next time. Remember CrossTalk was.


0:00 Hello and welcome to CrossTalk for all things considered. I’m Peter Lavelle.

0:04 Chicken came to the western-backed coup regime in Ukraine appears powerless to

0:08 stop the rapid collapse of the economy

0:09 and official structures. The agreed roadmap to de-escalate tensions

0:14 has gained little traction from the White House and the people of the East

0:17 and South Ukraine.

0:18 The West started this crisis, it will be left to Russia

0:21 to end it.

0:31 To cross that ongoing crisis in Ukraine I’m joined by my guests:

0:34 Alexander Mercouris in London, he is a writer on legal affairs and an analyst;

0:38 in San Francisco we have Mark Hackard, he is an author and columnist

0:41 for soul of the east dot org; and in Moscow we cross to Mark Sleboda.

0:45 He is a senior lecturer and researcher at Moscow State University. Gentlemen

0:49 crosstalk rules are in fact mean you can jump in anytime you want and I very

0:52 much encourage it

0:52 Alexander if I go to you first in London: what’s going on with this roadmap? At

0:57 the end of last week we had this

0:58 agreement to de-escalate the situation in Ukraine,

1:01 but over the weekend it rapidly deteriorated in Ukraine, so is it a dead

1:05 letter?

1:05 Well one has to wonder, I mean the problem is the walls,

1:10 the walls a statement which sets out a roadmap.

1:14 What there is—at the moment—is a complete lack of any political will

1:18 to put it into effect. [and] It has to be said very clearly that that lack of

1:23 political will

1:24 is coming at the moment from Kiev proper primarily,

1:28 and also from Washington. The moment this

1:31 document was signed off we already saw Washington trying to interpret it

1:36 in its own terms as requiring people in the east to

1:40 leave buildings first and with threats against Russia,

1:44 threats with more sanctions, and that is really not helpful in a situation like

1:48 this.

1:49 Mark in Moscow unhelpful that is exactly true here

1:53 It seems hard to believe that Barack Obama

1:57 was dismissing what his own Secretary of State had negotiated with his

2:01 counterpart,

2:02 the Russian Foreign Minister. I mean, again

2:06 is this a kind of “diplomacy” [in quote-and quote] we can expect

2:10 in dealing with this crisis in Ukraine? Well, I think we’ve seen a extreme

2:15 deficit in diplomacy out of the United States, not only in the Ukraine where for some

2:20 years now. Political dot com just recently did a piece exposing how

2:25 the majority of the US diplomats

2:29 within Europe are actually

2:32

2:35 Democratic Party activists who have paid large amounts of money to the Barak

2:41 Obama’s political campaign

2:42 in order to get those diplomatic seats.

2:46 Cronies if you will. The majority of the European capitals’

2:50 diplomats for the United States are political cronies of the Democratic

2:55 Party.

2:55 [and] This exposes itself in a complete dearth of professional diplomacy.

3:01 There are very few professional career diplomats

3:04 within the US diplomatic service. Now John Kerry himself

3:08 can be excluded to this to a certain extent having a long

3:12 career in foreign service within the Senate

3:16 But overall on the ground

3:20 throughout the rest of Europe and

3:23 all the other levels of functionaries within the US diplomatic

3:27 corps

3:27 we have seen a complete deficit of professionalism,

3:32 of knowledge about the region, and

3:35 the price for US policy and decision-making

3:40 has clearly been shown. Mark in San Francisco: it seems to me—and

3:45 please disagree if you

3:46 disagree with the following—it seems to me Washington really doesn’t want a

3:49 solution, it already has a goal,

3:52 and it wants to achieve that goal, but it has nothing to do with

3:56 democratic forces or the needs and wants of the Ukrainian people. What it

4:01 wants to do is, it wants to make

4:02 Russia look like it’s at fault here, and if you look at Western media

4:06 that’s all you’re going to hear or read. Yes that’s true.

4:11 If you look at what recently happened

4:15 you have the massacre in Slaviansk by Right Sector,

4:18 thugs and that’s not gonna get reported in the Western media.

4:22 Washington really doesn’t want a solution

4:25 to the crisis. It works for them if they can destabilize Russia’s periphery.

4:30 [and] You know, what’s basically happening is that

4:36 Washington, London, Paris—but especially

4:39 Washington slash Wall Street—

4:42 are looking to expand the powers as

4:47 far east as possible, and that’s what the

4:51 Maidan revolution was about. You know, under under

4:55 slogans of freedom and democracy they want to strip the country of its assets

5:01 and move NATO forces and missile defense assets

5:06 to Russia’s Southwest frontiers. How Alexander, the interesting thing is

5:12 –if I think back to

5:13 the breakup of Yugoslavia, the bombing of Serbia, and then

5:17 thinking in terms of what happened recently in Libya—this is the same

5:20 game plan?

5:21 Every single time they go to the same procedure. The difference is

5:24 in Ukraine, Russia is next door, and Russia has a lot of cards to play.

5:28 Now it looks a lot of people are saying that this is a ploy. They want to trick

5:32 Russia into some kind of move

5:33 that will start some kind of conflict—it would be very limited,

5:37 but Russia would be the net loser. Do you see that in your crystal ball?

5:41 No, I don’t actually. I think that they greatly underestimate Russia’s

5:46 intelligence and sophistication.

5:48 I think this has been a fundamental problem with the United States

5:52 on looking at Russia. It has a very outdated view of

5:55 Russia, still based on the nineteen nineties, and I think that anybody

6:00 —looking

6:01 at the quality of diplomatic service that Russia has, and his political

6:04 leadership,

6:05 and comparing it with that at the United States—

6:09 would say that simply isn’t going to happen. Can i just pick up on a point

6:13 that

6:13 Mark made. One of the fundamental problems dealing with the United States

6:18 is that you come up with a statement like the one we saw this week,

6:21 which in itself could take nothing forward,

6:24 but what then happens is that people in Washington try to use that

6:29 statement

6:29 for propaganda purposes completely distorting its meaning

6:34 in order to pursue the agenda that you touched on,

6:38 and which some of the other speakers on our program have touched on.

6:41 [and] That of course takes us back. Okay.

6:44 Mark in Moscow. You know, I really can’t figure this out

6:48 because it on the one hand it seems to me that Washington really,

6:51 it has a goal, but it’s how it gets there is very ad hoc.

6:55 They always go back, they always following news flow in trying to

6:59 to even out the news flow to reflect how they get to their goal.

7:03 But on the other side it seems to me that the Russians have prepared for

7:06 almost

7:07 every single contingency conceivable, and this is why Washington

7:11 looks so wobbly all the time. Well

7:15 I think that from the very beginning of this crisis

7:19 the US by openly supporting and fomenting and by all accounts

7:25 funding this Euro Maidan riots in putsch in Ukraine

7:30 they have counted on the fact that Russia

7:33 would simply accept another regime change

7:37 on their borders. As much as Russia did

7:40 in the Color Revolution that occurred in Ukraine in

7:44 2005, and that Russia—

7:48 for the sake of maintaining its relations with the West

7:51 and for the sake of economic relations with the Ukraine as a major trade

7:56 partner—would accept this change of regime, would accept

8:02 this geopolitical coup, and would actually fund

8:06 the putsch regime that the West has

8:10 had just installed there. They had the temerity, William Hague the

8:14 British Foreign Minister had the temerity to question

8:18 the Russian government, immediately after

8:22 the putsch took power in Kiev on February 21st and 22nd,

8:26 if Russia would continue its $15 billion dollars worth

8:30 of aid supported, and they acted genuinely shocked

8:35 when when Russia, you know,

8:39 made clear that they wouldn’t. So all along there has been

8:42 this assumption, this misreading of Russia’s core

8:48 national security and identity interest

8:52 that they would just accept it. [and] The truth is it was one regime to change

8:55 too many

8:57 and far too close to Russia’s redline security issues.

9:00 Mark in San Francisco, Mark in Moscow brings up a very good point.

9:04 After the illegal coup occurred,

9:07 you know, looking at it from Washington’s perspective,

9:10 did they really believe

9:12 that Russia was going to do nothing? What did they expect Russia to do?

9:16 I mean it’s on its border, it has national interest there,

9:20 there are Russian speakers there, there are ethnic Russians there, and Washington truly

9:23 expected

9:24 that Vladimir Putin would say alright fine?

9:30 Yes, I think that was the case.

9:33 If you look at what happened in the Orange Revolution 2004,

9:37 2005 as Mark in moscow pointed out,

9:45 they were expecting that Putin would

9:49 essentially grin and bear it.

9:52 Basically they wanted history to

9:57 repeat itself and they thought, that

10:00 the Ukraine would become essentially economics atrophy of the European Union,

10:06 that they could kick out, you know, in some period of time

10:11 the Black Sea Fleet from Sevastopol.

10:15 [and] They were probably genuinely surprised

10:19 when Russia secured Crimea

10:23 and shifted the agenda

10:26 so that it turned out that the West was off balance that

10:31 the US was not

10:34 setting the tune for

10:37 geopolitics in Eastern Europe. Let me go to Alexander real quick before we go to the break.

10:41 Alexander to me through this entire crisis the West never believes in the agency

10:46 of the Ukrainian people. It has to have fascists leading

10:49 the revolution in Maidan and people in the East simply don’t exist.

10:56 Well indeed that’s absolutely the case. The trouble is, as we were talking about

11:00 the US perception, the US does not have a realistic understanding of the Ukraine.

11:05 It does not have a realistic understanding in Russia.

11:08 Russia does have a realistic understanding of the Ukraine.

11:12 That is why Russia is being much more effective in its dealings in the Ukraine

11:17 than the US is, and why the US is getting into bed with some extremely violent forces.

11:22 Okay on that note there are you know which way to return to that we’re gonna

11:25 Go to a short break, and after that short break we’ll continue our discussion on

11:28 Ukraine’s day

11:29 with RT.

11:52 Welcome back to CrossTalk for all things considered. I’m Peter Lavelle.

11:55 To remind you, we’re discussing ongoing crisis in Ukraine.

12:07 Okay, I like to go back to Mark here in Moscow. When I talked about

12:09 Ukraine’s agency, the agency of the Ukrainian people you really perked up there.

12:15 You wanted a follow-up.

12:15 Yeah, I think this has been really crucial to understanding

12:20 the plans and the policies

12:23 of both the Western countries and this putsch regime that they have

12:28 helped install and backed in Kiev. Is

12:32 this denying of political agency and even of the very existence

12:37 of the people of South and East Ukraine? This has been instrumental.

12:41 We have to remember that this putsch regime has absolutely no

12:45 constitutional, legal or democratic

12:49 legitimacy. It was installed

12:52 at the back of violent street protests.

12:56 Mobs at the hands of an ultranationalist

13:00 vanguard that murdered police, young men in uniform

13:04 on the streets of Kiev in order to seize power. So in order to

13:08 help legitimize … Mark here in Moscow.

13:12 Mark, that that’s not true. I didn’t hear that on CNN.

13:17 I didn’t hear that on BBC. I didn’t read that in the Washington Post.

13:21 I didn’t see it in the New York Times. So that must not have happened, right?

13:26 That brings up an even better point is how the western press has been complicit

13:31 in his entire process.

13:32 [and] They really share a great deal of the great blame because they are on

13:36 there right now,

13:37 on the streets of Donetsk, Slaviansk

13:40 in the other cities in the East and South, where Russian

13:45 orientated protesters are. [and]

13:48 They’re not just russian ethnic or russian-speaking. I prefer to call them

13:51 Russian orientated because there are people for the reasons of

13:54 identity, for reasons of political and cultural orientation—

13:59 be they Russian ethnic, be they Ukrainian ethnic, be they primarily of Soviet

14:05 identity—they look towards Russia

14:07 for direction and for their identity.

14:10 [and] It has been instrumental, the press

14:13 has been instrumental in this process of denying that they are there. They keep

14:17 insisting on this mythology

14:20 propagated by both the putsch regime and the Western governments.

14:24 That this is all due to mysterious

14:27 Russian agents, men in green. That neither CNN nor CBS nor NBC nor the BBC have been

14:34 able to

14:35 to find a single Russian agent on the ground there.

14:38 They’ve talked to hundreds of people and they still can’t find any

14:43 Russian agents. The only agents—that we know for sure—

14:47 that are interfering in the politics of the Ukraine at this moment

14:50 are the CIA who have visited and/or

14:53 operating out on the floor of the Ukrainian Intelligent Committee

14:57 in Kiev. Mark, from the very very beginning I’ve said this

15:01 is really more about a media war here

15:04 because according to Western media there are no fascists,

15:07 and the people in the East just victims of Russian aggression.

15:11 But the fact of the matter is that there are known fascist

15:14 and ultra nationalist anti-semites in this government,

15:17 un-elected government in Kiev. But it’s almost never ever talked about,

15:21 except for the people in the East to being duped by Russians.

15:25 For heaven’s sake a lot of them all-Russian. You don’t have to motivate

15:29 these people.

15:30 If people like the Right Sector coming to your town you’re going to get ready.

15:33 Yes, absolutely.

15:36 That’s the funny thing the media, the Western media—

15:42 CNN, Fox News, whoever—will

15:45 call protesters in the East,

15:48 who—as Mark pointed out—for reasons of

15:52 cultural, ethnic,

15:55 religious identity look to Russia

15:58 for guidance. They will call them

16:02 let’s see … the rebels …

16:07 right they’re straight out called terrorists

16:10 whereas the people on the Maidan

16:14 the urban fighters who were shooting at cops, throwing Molotov

16:19 cocktails

16:20 were known as peaceful protesters, and that’s still the case.

16:24 [and] Those peaceful protesters that the core of that was Right Sector, and today

16:29 yes

16:30 Right Sector, with this

16:33 ideology that derives from the the doctrines of Stepan Bandera,

16:38 they are in the government.

16:41 Dmitry Yarosh who is running for president

16:48 is on the Defense and National Security Council.

16:52 You have other people like … I’d like also point out that this

16:56 gentleman, Yarosh, he is appointing people all throughout the

16:59 country

17:00 to positions of influence that have to do with security.

17:03 He’s spreading his venom here. Alexander,

17:07 let me go to You. It was so wonderful to have you here in Moscow a few weeks ago. We

17:11 talked it

17:12 quite a bit about what’s going on in Ukraine. Square the circle for me here.

17:15 Now these Right Sector people they cannot be elected, they

17:19 just don’t have the authoral power.

17:22 They can’t seem to keep the country together. The economy’s going into free

17:26 fall.

17:27 So when the European Union watches this upcoming election

17:30 is the European Union to call it right or they just going to make sure they get

17:34 their friends in power?

17:37 Well, they’re going to make sure that they get their friends in

17:40 power. I mean

17:41 this has been the consistent pattern unfortunately

17:44 in elections in the former Soviet bloc

17:47 since 1991. I happen to know that there was an election in Croatia

17:52 some years ago back in the 90’s which went wrong as well as the European Union

17:56 was concerned,

17:57 and the monitor’s report about it was

18:00 suppressed. And it was in nineteen ninety-six in Russia mister Yeltsin was

18:04 said to have won,

18:05 even though everybody knows he lost. The point about the election

18:09 that’s going to happen in the Ukraine

18:13 is it is not really an election at all. Two of the

18:16 candidates Mr. Tsarev and Mr. Dopkin

18:20 were recently assaulted because they’re considered to be by

18:23 Right Sector too close to the protests in the East.

18:28 The purpose of this election is to legitimize the seizure of power

18:33 that took place in Kiev on the 22nd of February.

18:37 [and] I think that’s an important point to make because, I agree with you completely,

18:42 the dominant groups within the government at least on the military side, Right

18:47 Sector and the rest,

18:48 would certainly not be able to win power

18:52 to the extent that they have it now, in any conceivable democratic election.

18:57 If you see the support they have is usually around one or two

19:00 percent.

19:01 Mark in Moscow: So what kind of democracy is the EU and Washington building in

19:07 Ukraine?

19:08 Because this is their mantra, okay, this is how they spread their power.

19:12 You will have an election,

19:13 I call it an election fetish. [and]

19:17 In the European Union they just keep having elections until they get the

19:19 right answer. Is this what we expect the same in Ukraine?

19:24 Well, through any of your viewers—and I think

19:27 RT viewers are a little bit more internet savvy than most—

19:31 who have managed to avoid the

19:35 black out of the Western mainstream media on the issue,

19:38 who watch RT or who are paying close attention to the videos or that thing—

19:43 of the Ukraine crisis, there is a video that showed a group of Right Sector

19:49 thugs walked into a local council meeting

19:53 about a month ago, just outside Kiev,

19:57 a local political Council, with

20:00 armed to the teeth, wearing masks and taking position behind

20:05 a number of the politicians with sledgehammers and

20:09 axes. They seized the microphone

20:12 and insisted that everyone there

20:16 who was a member of one of the previous governments

20:20 coalition parties—that is the party of regions or the Communist Party—

20:23 resign. That is the type of democracy

20:27 that is being built in the Ukraine. These

20:30 quote “elections” unquote that are coming up, that the putsch is trying to use to

20:35 legitimize itself.

20:36 We have had the Communist Party

20:39 leader be physically assaulted by Svoboda party members

20:44 on the floor of the Rada when he tried to raise objection

20:48 to the putsch’s policies of sending the military

20:51 against their own citizens in the East. The Communist Party headquarters

20:56 in Kiev has been looted and burned to the ground.

20:59 The Communist Party leader’s home has also been burned.

21:03 One of the first legislative actions of this

21:06 putsch Rada was too ban the Communist Party,

21:10 although that has not actually been put into law

21:14 for obvious reasons. The Party of Regions

21:18 offices have been looted and burned across the country.

21:21 Party of Regions officials have been lynched

21:25 in public. And, now we’ve had the beatings,

21:29 multiple beatings of the two presidential candidates who are not

21:33 represented

21:34 by the Euro Maidan putsch.

21:37 One of them to within an inch of his life and the perpetrators

21:42 are right-wing, these Right Sector, fascist paramilitaries

21:46 that are supportive and supported by this putsch regime.

21:50 So, let’s not talk about democracy. This is gone beyond mobacracy

21:54 into direct fascism. Mark,

21:58 define some kind of a solution to, well, what’s going on Ukraine. Russia has to be

22:02 part of the

22:03 the end game here. When is that going to happen

22:07 because on the one hand Washington and Brussels keep threatening

22:11 [with] the stick but [you know] Russia has all of the carrots to take care of this.

22:15 I was hoping for a long time we could go back to

22:19 February 21st but that that seems to be impossible right now.

22:23 Does the European Union and Washington really want to stand

22:27 shoulder to shoulder with these really gruesome people because it’s coming out,

22:30 it’s coming social media,

22:32 on the Internet, okay, maybe the networks, the broadshit

22:36 wanna talk about it, but it’s there and it’s coming to light

22:39 Yes,

22:42 they are standing shoulder to shoulder

22:45 with thugs, and there’s precedent for this.

22:50 In the Ukraine the United States

22:54 and certain european powers, especially

22:57 Britain of course, are using these movements like

23:01 Right Sector and Svoboda to achieve their aims, to take power.

23:04 Just as they use terrorists,

23:08 jihadists in Syria, or against against Russia itself they

23:13 will promote movements

23:16 for cultural disintegration, sexual deviance like Pussy Riots.

23:22 So you see there, these vectors of subversion

23:26 and western intelligence

23:29 will use these people

23:33 against Russia for its geopolitical agenda.

23:37 The agenda in Ukraine … Gentlemen, we’ve run out of time. Everything we’ve

23:41 talked about here

23:42 doesn’t seem to help the Ukrainian people. They are the one in crisis. Many

23:46 thanks to my guests today in London,

23:47 San Francisco and in Moscow, and thanks to our viewers

23:50 for watching us here …. See you next time. Remember CrossTalk was.

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